[MCP] MCP Digest, Vol 33, Issue 55
Rogier Gregoire
gregoire at mindspring.com
Sun Nov 25 16:28:30 EST 2007
I don't believe Steve Greaves contributed much refinement to my point
that Moynihan's comments were slanderous by trying to say that Bonds
was guilty of the accusation, The accusation is grammatically correct
but Bonds has not been proven guilty of a crime. I suspect that Steven
Greaves simply misspelled my name so for the record let me correct
him. My name is Rogier not Roger or as Moynihan prefers Rog-o (or
something of the sort).
On the other hand, it was improper for me to accuse anyone of being a
racist without proof. White privilege is even more difficult to
identify but after more than 70 years in this country both qualities
are easily identifiable for me.
I have already sent an apology to the list without Steven Greaves
prompting and I hope that settles the issue. I always appreciate
efforts at refinement even when they add little to the conversation.
Its the conversation that can be revealing so I hope that can continue
with civility.
Rogier Gregoire
On Nov 25, 2007, at 11:00 AM, mcp-request at edchange.org wrote:
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> 1. Re: Fwd: Barry Bonds is guilty? (Steve Moynihan)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:37:50 -0500
> From: "Steve Moynihan" <spmoynihan at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [MCP] Fwd: Barry Bonds is guilty?
> To: "Multicultural Pavilion's discussion group on equity, social
> justice, and multicultural education." <mcp at edchange.org>
> Message-ID: <023e01c82f03$cc77cdb0$0201a8c0 at Desktop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> You can go to http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/default.aspx
> to check out the salaries of the baseball players, as well as all
> professional athletes. I really feel bad for these athletes
> (regardless of color) and don't see this as "spoiled white men
> paying poor black men to beat each other up for their amusement." I
> won't begin to try to classify these players by their color or
> ethnicity. Seems foolish. Derek Jeter, is he white, is he black?
> Does it matter, no!! David Ortiz - very black. But, he's also
> categorized as Dominican... All just a waste of time. Let's look at
> them for what they are, exceptionally gifted humans.
>
> You can go to http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/33/Income_1.html to
> check out the income of the mlb teams. Not all teams make an
> accounting profit, but many do okay, some really well. And what do
> a majority of them do, turn around and spend it on athletes. Now I
> don't support tax funded stadiums, but we also have to look at the
> impact these teams have on their cities - the money brought in to
> the local bars, restaurants, clubs, parking lots, public transit,
> vendors, etc. Baseball plays 82 games at their ballparks - that's a
> lot of opportunities for a lot of people to make a living.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: steve greaves
> To: Multicultural Pavilion's discussion group on equity, social
> justice,and multicultural education.
> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2007 3:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [MCP] Fwd: Barry Bonds is guilty?
>
>
> Roger and Steve,
> please try and disagree without the ad hominems, the you're stupids
> and the have some balls, etc etc etc.
>
> Roger's point actually needs slight refinement: An accusation once
> turned into a police action becomes an allegation of a crime. An
> allegation doesn't prove anything. A person once tried and
> convicted then can be said to have committed the crime. But, Roger,
> the fact that X hasn't been convicted doesn't mean that a crime
> wasn't committed. It means no one can state as a demonstrated fact
> that X committed the crime or that for sure a crime was committed in
> the case of perjury. For "public figures" you can get away with
> saying he did it, but for persons not in the limelight, you may be
> guilty of libel if you insist someone committed a crime and they
> didn't. Free speech and a person's reputation are both legitimate
> rights, and legitimate rights often are in conflict, which is why
> they aren't absolute.
> And just because Mr. X believes Bonds is guilty doesn't make
> Mr. X a racist. And the fact, if demonstrated as fact, that Bonds
> is guilty doesn't mean that his being ritually and repeatedly ad
> nauseam smeared in the media (no wonder he's unpleasant, although I
> doubt that steroids do anything for a person's pleasantness rating)
> isn't a big dramatization of racism, of taking a successful black
> man and making him out to be unwholesome and to be disdained if not
> locked up.
> As far as I can tell, Bonds being the scapegoat of a system
> that has been in place -- with pitchers opposing him probably as
> pumped up on chemicals as he is when he swings the bat more capably
> than they throw the ball -- that doesn't have coaches and teams,
> team owners and . . . going back in time . . . real bigshots like GW
> Bush profiting more than anyone from the game, being also indicted
> -- not just for dealing drugs but for much bigger criminal
> conspiracies that have amounted to making a mockery of big team
> sports, which are supposed to build character not be arenas for
> competitive narcissisms -- the fact that Bonds is and has been
> targeted so ruthlessly and GW Bush and other team owners and former
> owners, big rich white men, indicates to me there's very much that
> is racist about this. Bonds is a, if not the, homerun king, so if
> there's some way we can knock him off that pedestal, or several
> pedestals, doesn't that make us white men feel holier than thou
> inside.
> I think you need to check your priorities, Mr. Moynihan, and
> examine why you need so badly to be harping on this major black
> sports figure's possible infamy. True, if a crime's been committed,
> it makes sense to investigate, but what about the bigger crime of
> wealthy mostly white rich males redesigning the entire game of big
> sports so that it profits their criminal syndicates. It still
> smacks to me of Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man, with spoiled white
> men paying poor black men to beat each other up for their
> amusement. It's undignified to be selling boxes of tomatoes to
> throw at the athletes, just because they don't match your vision of
> purity. What about dragging the big white asses to court who play
> Wizard to this Oz?
> Rogier Gregoire <gregoire at mindspring.com> wrote:
> Dear Steve,
> Your original email stated the following:
> "The problem with Bonds is he allegedly lied under oath. That
> is a crime." I called you on this statement because an alleged
> accusation does not constitute a crime. You might think or believe
> he committed a crime but he has not and your statement is false. The
> crime can only exist if he is convicted of lying under oath, not
> simply because he is accused of doing so. Lying under oath may be a
> crime but he has not committed one. Is that clear! the OJ Simpson
> comment stands for what it is - not much, but I decided to make sure
> we understood what he was found guilty of in a civil court. Perhaps
> I'm being a bit too precise in my language or the effort to clarify
> your comments but I hope this clears it up for you.
>
>
> By the way this is not an attempt to display my "balls". I sent
> you the original not to hide from making a correction but to simply
> make my efforts at correcting your grammar and what I suppose to be
> a sly condemnation of Barry Bonds quietly between us. It was not
> cowardice just a simply courtesy. I don't have any more to say on
> this issue except that I wish you a wonderful holiday season.
>
>
> Rogier Gregoire (not Rog-o)
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>
> From: "Steve Moynihan" <spmoynihan at comcast.net>
> Date: November 23, 2007 4:18:02 PM CST
> To: "Rogier Gregoire" <gregoire at mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: Barry Bonds is guilty?
>
>
> Roger - I thank you for your reply. As to your points. First,
> the use of allegedly lied under oath is the proper way to address
> the situation on a forum such as this. Read the paper & watch the
> news - until someone has been proven guilty by the courts that's how
> it is addressed. Frankly, I don't see why you are upset.
>
> The rest of my post regarding Bonds was to counter the points
> made regarding Bonds being innocent or unfairly treated because he
> is black. I disagreed - but never did I insult their intelligence,
> I simply argued to the contrary. I was stating what I believe - and
> what I believe is Bonds is guilty. Rog-o, do you even follow
> sports? Look at the guy. Look at the pictures of Bonds when he
> played with the Pirates. Compare them to now. Also, Bonds is a
> polarizing character. He has alienated his teammates and a large
> mlb fan base. Other athletes have been accused of steroids - and
> some have been found guilty. The problem with Bonds was his alleged
> lying under oath (which people like Giambi did not do) and the
> arrogance in which he has conducted himself. It is not a race
> thing, in my opinion. But, because I disagree with the point, and
> because it is was made to be a race issue, I become a racist? To
> me, that shows a lack of intelligence on your part. But I guess its
> easier to label someone a racist than to debate the issue. Lastly,
> have some balls and reply before the whole group.
>
> Again, thanks for the opportunity to reply and have a Happy
> Thanksgiving.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rogier Gregoire" <gregoire at mindspring.com
> >
> To: <spmoynihan at comcast.net>
> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 4:23 PM
> Subject: Barry Bonds is guilty?
>
>
>
> I thought I would bring to your attention that the statement
> "Bonds allegedly lied under oath" is just that, an accusation, not
> an inditement or statement of guilt. That is not a crime until it
> has have been proven guilty by a judge or jury. I assume that it
> simply a mistake on your part not a declaration of intelligence. So
> I'll ignore everything after that illogical and erroneous
> statement. Your probably not a racist just stupid. Although racism
> often masks as stupidity.
>
> Rogier Gregoire
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> End of MCP Digest, Vol 33, Issue 55
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