[MCP] Capitalism and citing statistics

Mon May 7 09:46:02 EDT 2007

Bill,

I'm not side-stepping your question. I answered that I was only involved in
that I made a short, unpaid appearance in the film. I don't know the other
details--whether students were paid to be in the film (I'd guess not), and
so on. As I said in my previous message, I've never taken a stand
specifically on 300% markups. You seem very stuck on that point. I only made
the argument that 300% markups do, in fact, exist, in connection with a
larger issue, which is corporate capitalism, or the concentration of wealth
and power in the hands of corporations. 

So, no, my hands aren't clean, nor are any of our hands clean. I try, and
too often fail, to be conscientious about my own consuming habits and my
ecological "footprint." Then, like many, I try to assuage my own guilt about
over-consumption and oppressive decisions by making donations, volunteering,
and so forth. 

The set of quotes are a poetic interpretation.

The "the point is" is just a phrase I used to refocus on the central issue.
I never had any sense that you were defending Nike. 

But all of this continuing discussion serves as an illustration of how we
get muddled in all of these details and he-said, she-said, which diverts us
from deeper conversation, such as, how does capitalism necessitate
oppression?

Paul

********
Paul C. Gorski
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-----Original Message-----
From: mcp-bounces at edchange.org [mailto:mcp-bounces at edchange.org] On Behalf
Of Bill Braun
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:38 PM
To: Multicultural Pavilion's discussion group on equity, social justice,and
multicultural education.
Subject: Re: [MCP] Capitalism and citing statistics

You side stepped my question, Paul. Are the black students, who arguably are
the source of the deep insights of the film, receiving royalties for making
the producers money? So if you aren't making money directly, your hands are
clean? You are helping others to make money. If you are morally opposed to
300% markups (on very solid ground, in my opinion), doesn't it make sense
that you would know the margins the producers will make from their work
aided by your appearance in the film, which carries enormous moral weight?

I find a great deal of legitimate challenge in your questions to me, Paul.
And, you can't have it both ways.

Regarding, "The point was that there ARE industries where profit margins
approach the sorts of ludicrous levels named in the previous post and that
your "no they don't because Nike says so" was a little naive." Are you
quoting me or are the quote marks for emphasis? I can't find anything I
wrote that gave Nike that much credit.

I am interpreting "Anyway, the point, as you say, is not the markup. That's
just one dimension of the discussion. The point is that very, very poor
people are working in Nike factories under horrendous conditions and getting
paid next to nothing so that Nike can make the profits it makes, most of
which goes into the pockets of very wealthy people." as implying that I am
making excuses for Nike or other such organizations. Is that an accurate
interpretation?

I acknowledged your valid point that I have made claims in the past, without
evidence. Is there a rejoinder to my acknowledgment or, since you are
repeating your assertion (accurately), you expect another response from me?

Bill

Paul C. Gorski wrote: 

Bill,

The DVD is not "my" new DVD. It's a DVD in which I make a brief appearance.
You seem to be trying to make the point that it's somehow conflictual for me
to make the argument I'm making about capitalism and posting the
announcement of the DVD on my site (for which I'm not making any money, by
the way, nor did I make any money for appearing in the film). I'm not sure
about the costs--you'd have to contact the publisher about that. I do know
that it's being sold relatively cheaply when compared to films from
California Newsreel or Stirfry Seminars (who produce Color of Fear), etc.,
which usually sell for about $295.

Anyway, the point, as you say, is not the markup. That's just one dimension
of the discussion. The point is that very, very poor people are working in
Nike factories under horrendous conditions and getting paid next to nothing
so that Nike can make the profits it makes, most of which goes into the
pockets of very wealthy people. I never made the argument that similarly
horrendous things don't happen with smaller profit margins--they surely do.
That wasn't the point. The point was that there ARE industries where profit
margins approach the sorts of ludicrous levels named in the previous post
and that your "no they don't because Nike says so" was a little naive. (And
that you constantly make claims on this list, mostly about racism, without
documenting evidence, but were insisting that somebody else document
evidence.) 

And yes, we have to be very careful not to pull "facts" out of the air
because people will use any excuse possible to invalidate us. Still, this is
not enough for us to lose site of the underlying messages of somebody's
post, which is something we don't do very well discussing on this list.

Paul
********
Paul C. Gorski
EdChange: http://www.EdChange.org <http://www.edchange.org/> 
Multicultural Pavilion: http://www.EdChange.org/multicultural
Social Justice Store: http://www.cafepress.com/edchange
Multicultural Poster Store: http://www.EdChange.org/posters
SoJust Civil Rights History: http://www.SoJust.net <http://www.sojust.net/> 
Nat. Assn. for Multicultural Education: http://www.nameorg.org
<http://www.nameorg.org/> 
Minnesota-NAME: http://www.mn-name.org <http://www.mn-name.org/> 

-----Original Message-----
From: mcp-bounces at edchange.org [mailto:mcp-bounces at edchange.org] On Behalf
Of Bill Braun
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 4:16 PM
To: Multicultural Pavilion's discussion group on equity, social justice,and
multicultural education.
Subject: Re: [MCP] Capitalism and citing statistics

Paul, I guess I'll have to admit to being in the same league with Nike if we
are going to only look at the markup on the direct costs of an item, and
ignore other expenses a company has. I owned my own business for 10 years. I
used my knowledge about business and healthcare to help customers run their
healthcare business better. By rough reckoning I marked-up my services by
approximately 12,000% (that's not a typo). I incurred no cash expenses in
generating ideas and recommendations and charged, on average, $120 an hour.

(How about you, Paul? Your new DVD, "White Teachers, Diverse Classrooms" -
$69.95 for material and production costs of approximately $1.42 each
(http://www.ultradisc.com/packages/) - 4,800% markup or thereabouts. This
perfectly makes my point about what numbers we pick and choose - notice I
conveniently left out the cost of filming. And do you realize that once you
recoup the cost of filming, and any other cost you incurred, that the
mark-up for every DVD sold after that point will indeed be 4,800%. Since we
are talking about the evils of capitalism, would you be willing to disclose
what your costs were? And, are any of the black students receiving
royalties? And, what IS a moral markup over costs?)

The way we've been bantering around 300% it sure sounded to me like Nike was
getting it all. Even Mr./Dr. Lormand's numbers (from your link below) make
it clear that's not the case. Looks like your friendly local Foot Locker
retailer is more of a villain than Nike is.

You are correct in pointing out that it isn't exactly 300%. By Dr./Mr.
Lormand's calculations it's 75%. As to the oddity of using Nike's SEC
filing, I'm game to using any numbers from any source, and I don't suppose
at this point I need to question them since it appears to be a search for
data that supports an already formed opinion.

You rightly point out and challenge me on the many claims I've made over the
years. To be honest, I cannot remember what they are, so I don't have much I
can offer by way of any justification for them. And, if someone is speaking
from their experience, I hope that I have not unfairly demanded proof. If I
have, I owe apologies to people. You are vigilant in holding people to
account (something for which I appreciate you, including right now) so I
will conclude, with reason I hope, that if I unfairly pinned someone to the
wall in the past you would have brought me to account.

I am sitting here in the unlikely position of being cast an apologist for
Nike. I'm hard pressed to think of a more vile organization. I don't recall
ever buying their products, but if I did it is more than 20 years ago when I
started boycotting the company.

Paul, the actual Nike numbers have nothing to do with this, nor does the
source of them. My point was, and still is, that using bad data does not
further the cause, no matter how good it feels.

Bill

Paul C. Gorski wrote:
> Bill,
> 
> You're getting into some 
complexities here. The numbers in the annual
>  report take into 
account Nike's ridiculous advertising budget, the 
> money it 
distributes in grants, and so on. If you follow a single 
> pair of 
basketball shoes--what it costs to make them (in labor and 
> materials) 
and sell them, that's where you see the markup. And, of 
> course, the 
idea that you'd look for evidence in a Nike report is a 
> little 
odd...
> 
> This breakdown isn't exactly 300%, but it's also 10 
years old:
> 
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lormand/poli/nike/nike101-8.htm
<http://www-personal.umich.edu/%7Elormand/poli/nike/nike101-8.htm> 
> 

> But back to my central point: You've made many claims on this list 

> over the years that haven't been backed up by numbers. Are you sure 

> you're holding yourself to the same standards to which you're 
holding
>  others?
> 
> 
Paul

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