[MCP] limiting access

Sat Mar 10 12:29:21 EST 2007

To Steve Moynihan:
  There's chauvinism and there's classism.  I don't know if You're  guilty of the latter, but You're certainly indulging in the  former.  As an apparently contentedly assimilated (white?  Male?  HETEROSEXUAL?) card-carrying member of the "100% American"  cult, You apparently have little time or patience for the study of  history, which would help tremendously if You don't want to appear  boorish or smug to people who truly care about the welfare and rights  of others who happen to be, on various surfaces, quite different from  and more vulnerable practically than ourselves.  A chauvinist, by  the way, is someone who believes he is more entitled than others to  respect for the way he conducts his life in the milieu in which he  finds himself than various others, whom he complacently dings for their  alleged weaknesses, faults, inadequacies, attributing to them motives  or character traits that reinforce his theory of his own higher worth  or status.  
  Your complaint about undocumented immigrants is hardly worthy of reply  when compared with the legitimate complaints Native Americans have  against Your and my ancestors, who received their hospitality, then  proceeded to drive them off the land they'd cared for for centuries.  (Sorry, i don't know what Your ancestors did -- maybe Your ancestors  were actually dirt poor immigrants themeselves, and weren't involved in  the racist domination of this continent and the kidnapping and torture  of folks from Africa as well, like mine were.)
  But maybe Your ethics is one of might makes right, which is  fundamentally that of the thug and the gangster.  Anyone who  tweets "free market" in their arguments I find highly suspicious of  radical cultism, which is the attachment to a cluster of ideas that may  sound reasonable but if historically analyzed are revealed to be a set  of busswords layering over and concealing lots of bloody abuses of  people who couldn't defend themselves.  How serious are You,  brother, about really wanting to understand how humanity has gotten to  this dire moment in time, and how/why it is that so many people are  content to abuse and disregard so many others.  Have You thought  about why it is so difficult for many immigrants coming to america to  learn English?  Like that they're struggling to put food on the  table and a roof over their families' heads, seeking work from people  who are as likely as not moral morons who look down their noses at them  while underpaying them, or even
 paying them fairly but doing so under  the table so as to avoid paying taxes, which in their patriotic  rhetoric, they never really understood the value of for creating  healthy communities.  (There are so many ways redblooded americans  have proved to the world what sly slackers we can be. . . and we're so  hurt that some folks out there don't like or trust us.)

    But perhaps You don't have time for that, when it's easier to  dismiss the life experiences of people whom the Sean Hannities of this  upright nation can, on the one hand, belittle with dehumanizing phrases  such as "illegal alien" while, on the other hand, send billions of  dollars of investment to their countries for the collusive sharing of  profits with a narrow elite that uses state terrorism to dispossess  those very "illegal aliens" from the land their families once  judiciously tilled.

     We would all be able to organize this world into a truly  just, safe and peaceful arena for mutual edification, celebration and  exploration if some people would talk less (i.e., try to score points  against weaker others to the point of even having them disappear) and  study more.

  As for me, I never have enough hours in the day to study what is going  on today and what went on yesterday so that I can make some  contribution to how we shape tomorrow for our and everybody else's  children's children's grandchildren.  So if i, with a college  education, white male heterosexual, have a hard time making ends meet  AND properly analyzing power dynamics around me, having failed in the  1970s to grasp how truly evil (anti-egalitarian, hyper-elitist) and  powerful certain groups of people in this country have proved to be,  then consider how difficult it is for a non-college-educated  non-English-speaking immigrant from a country to our south feels, when  to protect his family from a NAFTA- and Monroe-Doctrine manipulated  state government that oppressed them materially he has fled Norte to  try to remedy their straits.  But maybe the sound of Your voice is  more comforting to You than such consideration, which, God knows, is  not supposed to be comforting
 at all, but should raise bile in your  throat and ire in your heart at the injustices to which Your name or  aspirations have become tragically attached.
     In our lifetimes, we won't see proper justice done in its  fullness.  But unless we have the guts to admit we're part of the  problem we can never help in constructing the alternative world that is  absolutely necessary to live in.  To begin with, You could stop  parroting slogans that make You sound like a moral-ethical moron.
  (If You're wondering why I've capitalized the Y in You it's because  there is no divinity in me unless i recognize it first in You.   Our nation is far too obsessed with capitalizing the first person and  reducing the second and third persons.)
  Peace,
  Steve Greaves

Bill Braun <bbraun at hlthsys.com> wrote:                  I think you are still flying too close to the ground, Steve. There is  nothing wrong with asking people in America to speak English. It  becomes problematic when they are demonized when they don't learn it at  the speed white people think they should. It is not an issue of  language, Steve, it is an issue of white supremacy.

  Your information on wait times in Canada is woefully anecdotal. One  would think from such a comment that they are a less healthy nation  than we are. Quite the contrary. We lag behind all other industrialized  nations on critical community based measure of health (post-natal care,  for example), on some measures even lagging behind some Two-Third World  countries. You are confusing statistically insignificant (but dramatic)  health problems with community health. I recommend "Why Are Some People  Health and Other Are Not?" by Evans, Barer, and Marmor to bone up on  the primary longitudinal determinants of health. Also, check out the  Whitehall Study.

  Free markets work when purchasers have all the information they need  and understand to make discriminating purchases. Many markets,  healthcare among them, are driven by information that is not accessible  to most people. As an example, what is the differential diagnosis for a  headache, Steve? If you cannot answer that question, on what basis  would you advocate that free markets govern healthcare?

  Bill Braun

  Steve Moynihan wrote:                  Hmmmmm.

    Francis Kendall may not have set the  price, but Francis made a contract with the publisher.  Francis could  have given the book away free and not have had it published by a  company.  So Francis is guilty of classism.  Francis made a choice and  appears to be a classist.  My logic does apply.  

    If you want to post in Spanish, that  is fine.  I could pick up a Spanish dictionary and figure out what you  were saying... if I really wanted to.  Probably not. What is wrong with  asking people in America to expect to speak English?  I understand  about global economies... most Americans though live in work and travel  here.  I think it is great that people come here and want to learn  English and that Americans learn other languages, whether for travel,  business, or national defense.  But printing ballots in Farsi or  Spanish road signs... the Balkanization of America has begun.  Our  neighbors to the north... so multicultural, so dual-language, so  divided.

    How do we pay for universal  healthcare?  Again Canada, its not a great model.  Waiting weeks for an  appointment that takes days in America is not a great trade-off.  Our  healthcare system is far from perfect, but a move toward a free market  is better than central planning.  
          -----  Original Message ----- 
      From:      John  Lindsay 
      To:      mcp at edchange.org      
      Sent:  Thursday, March 08, 2007 6:52 AM
      Subject:  [MCP] limiting access

            Hmmmm.
      Perhaps I should write my reply in Spanish, re your comments on  "Bilingual Education."
  Would that limit your access to the information?
      Because that's what I'm referring to: the various ways this  society limits access to pertinent information, etc.

      "Is everyone expected to provide  their product or service for free, at a ridiculously low price, or for  the perceived general good?"
      Should I allow you to determine the  only choices to answer your question?! 
      Are you opposed to universal  healthcare for the US?
  Frances Kendall didn't set the price of the book. So your "logic"  doesn't apply. 

            John L. 

      From:      "Steve Moynihan" <spmoynihan at comcast.net>
  Reply-To: "Multicultural Pavilion's discussion group on equity,  social justice,and multicultural education." <mcp at edchange.org>
  To: "Multicultural Pavilion's discussion group on equity, social  justice,and multicultural education." <mcp at edchange.org>
  Subject: Re: [MCP] (no subject)
  Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 17:50:47 -0500

      Maybe I missed the sarcasm, but... 
      If setting a  price for one's product or service is classism, then every  store, university, gas station, college, contractor, doctor, repairman,  pizza shop etc. is a part of this -ism.  And if setting a price for  your service, or labor, is classism, then establishing a minimum  wage could be classist.  Is everyone expected to provide their product  or service for free, at a ridiculously low price, or for the perceived  general good?  Things worked well for the former Soviet bloc.  Maybe I  need some more explaining on this -ism...  
      -----  Original Message ----- 
      From:      John  Lindsay 
      To:      mcp at edchange.org      
      Sent:  Tuesday, March 06, 2007 9:29 PM
      Subject:  [MCP] (no subject)

  Has anyone read this book? Kendall spoke at the university here back in  the mid-90s, holding a two-day workshop for faculty and staff. 

                                            I thought she  did a great job!!! I was allowed to attend due to my work with the  student org known as AWARE.
                              It seems the  good books always have an outrageous price.....another form of  classism. 
                              John L.

                                                                                  6.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Understanding White  Privilege: Creating Pathways to Authentic Relationships Across Race  (Teaching/Learning for Social Justice) by  Frances E. Kendall (Hardcover  - Mar 21, 2006)                                                                                                  Buy new:  $125.00    See 8 offers from $114.90                                                                                                  

---------------------------------
 ****************************************
  You received this message because you are subscribed to the  Multicultural Pavilion email discussion group. To unsubscribe or change  your subscription settings, visit:

  http://edchange.org/mailman/listinfo/mcp_edchange.org

  For more equity, social justice, and multicultural education resources  vist:

  EdChange: http://www.edchange.org
  Multicultural Pavilion: http://www.edchange.org/multicultural 
  Transformations Book Store: http://www.edchange.org/transformations
  Nat. Assn. for Multicultural Education: http://www.nameorg.org 

---------------------------------

****************************************
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Multicultural Pavilion email discussion group. To unsubscribe or change your subscription settings, visit:

http://edchange.org/mailman/listinfo/mcp_edchange.org

For more equity, social justice, and multicultural education resources vist:

EdChange: http://www.edchange.org
Multicultural Pavilion: http://www.edchange.org/multicultural 
Transformations Book Store: http://www.edchange.org/transformations
Nat. Assn. for Multicultural Education: http://www.nameorg.org 

-- 
There's nothing more practical than a good theory.
 -Lewin
  ****************************************
You  received this message because you are subscribed to the Multicultural  Pavilion email discussion group. To unsubscribe or change your  subscription settings, visit:

http://edchange.org/mailman/listinfo/mcp_edchange.org

For more equity, social justice, and multicultural education resources vist:

EdChange: http://www.edchange.org
Multicultural Pavilion: http://www.edchange.org/multicultural 
Transformations Book Store: http://www.edchange.org/transformations
Nat. Assn. for Multicultural Education: http://www.nameorg.org 

---------------------------------
It's here! Your new message!
Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/mcp_edchange.org/attachments/20070310/47a56f22/attachment-0001.html 